and no I do not think we are at war with Islam...

it was sarcasm on my part

But Java didn't it feel wrong to be told to stand in line and forced to say that? It made me feel ackward and strange I hated it...

Java what are the words "now" to that pledge exactly?
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I'm in high school(public), before they they start the pledge allegiance they ask everyone to be silent for a 30 sec prayer(i guess pray for the school).

Doreen, yes I also noticed that in the 60's when I was in grade school...
Also saying school prayer every morning was something that really bothered me...

Milford Beach Connecticut 1969 , Ansonia Connecticut 1970 and then a move to Largo Florida 1972
changed everything, then it was only the pledge...

My daughter was asked by a young girl in her class if she goes to church and when Shelby said no, she was laughed at, picked on and told she was going to hell while also being totally stupid as a rock because God knows she doesn't believe in him.

This happened last grading period, at that point I told my daughter when someone asks her something personal to tell them to mind their own business and ignore them. If they push her as has happened since then I have told her to warn them once to keep their hands off her and if they do it again to make use of her right to protect herself and we would deal with the out come when it came.

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KarmaGril, but that *is* the assumption, that it is in fact a Christian God this Nation bows to and was built worshiping.

That is why I feel it hsould be removed and recited by the origional text and then those who want to push religion into public schools and every manner of life can fight their fight out in the open from behind the smoke and mirrors and those who wish to fight against that happening can do the same.

Z06 30 second prayer??? what kind of decent prayer can you say in 30 seconds... hehe!

yeah IP I remember always getting yelled at in line cuz I did not want to put my hand on my heart and do that pledge it always felt ackward and stupid for me...

#32 by Doreen - 11/4/2003 3:15:44 PM But Java didn't it feel wrong to be told to stand in line and forced to say that? It made me feel ackward and strange I hated it... Java what are the words "now" to that pledge exactly?

No.  I never felt odd.  i come from a family that has been in the military.  My Grandfather was in WWII, my Dad was in the army during Vietnam.  The pledge has always been an affirmation of my belief in this country.  I never cared about the "God" part, and I never saw it as "Christian".

The pledge is: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

The full Star Spangled Banner (We only ever hear the first verse) also has: "And this be our motto: In God is our trust." in it  

hehe! I just asked my son what the pledge is and he don't know it either, he gets as far as the word America... hehe
(must run in the blood)

I don't know, I never pray during that time

Thanks Java, I was had just asked my son cuz I was curious if he knew it since he has to say it everyday, and he just told me he hates doing it and does not know all the words either... hehe
(no he's not playing hooky from school he is out sick right now)

Here's a brief outline of the history of the pledge.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

But the thing with pledging to the flag, isn't real anymore. Once they allowed malcontents to burn it any collective meaning went POOF in smoke the first one that was burned legally when they expressed freedom of *speech* with that action. As for freedom of speech, they have that right by court decision to express their *voice* by burning the flag and I have the right to voice mine by beating the snot out of anyone expressing theirs by burning a flag in my presence

For that I would AND will willingly sit in jail any time...

I guess the question comes into play on weather the Flag represents a flawed and self possessive Government of Professional Liars, Thieves and self determined manipulators, or the people that that same government is supposed to represent? If it is a flag of that self described government then it's just color on cloth, if it is the people, the nation and those who have and will die to protect it, then it is beyond reproach and should never be allowed to be desecrated.

The duality seems to ebb and flow around any and all decisions of choice... which is one of the defining things behind the concept of freedom.


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I think it's a good thing that the pledge be recited. There are other pledges we make to ourselves everyday that involve the security and sense of self that we reap from belonging to a community of like minded people. A 'pledge' is a promise...it doesn't mean you relinquish your individuality nor does it mean that you have to be a blind 'we follow anybody' robot to everything that your institution does. It means that with your chosen companions you retain a respect and adherence to common values and believe it is your obligation to protect and contribute to them. If I find that what happens in the name of Old Glory isn't quite right then there are avenues within the limits of law and morality that I can take to help rectify it. I'm not thrilled with the way our government handles everything...and sometimes I resent horribly the misdeeds and deceptions that seem to be riddling the political arenas...but that will not ever EVER change the fact that this is my homeland...I have a right to pledge my loyalty my life and my soul to it if I see fit. Thank God this is a country that we can do that! I think maybe some real changes need to be made in order to bring us truly into the world arena without committing financial suicide...but I won't NOT say my pledge to my country and my standard in order to achieve those changes!

footsie: I have a right to pledge my loyalty my life and my soul to it if I see fit. Thank God this is a country that we can do that!

But, in the land of the free, doesn't it seem wrong to you that kids MUST recite that every day?  Should a pledge be a voluntary act?  Doesn't freedom of speech include the right to dissention?

Anyway, I wonder if there are many countries like the US. It's quite interesting.  Frankly, in Canada, most people don't give a hoot about their Country, as a symbol. It's just where we live, and where we are happy. Nothing too exciting.  We feel the most patriotic during the Olympics, where we get to cheer for our country, other than that... I guess it's just the place we chose to make our home. *shrug*

Paxx: like I said, there is no requirement to say it. Various religious groups don't, and I didn't half the time when I was in school. To my knowledge there is no law or government mandate on the books that says anyone has to. It is just a 'citizenship' type thing that is taken for granted.

The gist of the lawsuit is that even if the guy's daughter abstains, there is still force applied when the school leads the kids in the pledge. His point is she shouldn't have to abstain from a religious act in a public school, and frankly it is hard to see fault in that logic.



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Children, although they must retain the right to be PROTECTED by the law should not claim the same rights that adults should. It is still up to responsible adults to make responsible decisions for the innocents in their care. The above is my opinion. I don't require you to agree with it. I simply ask that you respect my right to voice it. That IS what you mean by free speech isn't it?